Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: MissingNo. on December 27, 2008, 04:35:31 PM
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I got a Micro SD 4GB with a SD card adapter and started thinking. On Spetember 2, 2008, Drunken Coders released the first realease of Quake II DS (http://quake.drunkencoders.com/index_q2.html (http://quake.drunkencoders.com/index_q2.html)). I said to myself, "If Quake II could make it to the DS, why can't Digital Paint Paintball 2 do the same?" Although I don't know much about programming .NDS files, I'm willing to help out in a few ways with other's help. Any helpers out there?
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although I know nothing about the DS, I know the port wouldn't be a success in gameplay.
First DP2 is all about online gameplay, for the time a DS doesn't have wifi, (if it even gets wifi :/ ) it won't be very fun. And for the times someone is playing online, it will be very disadvantous, since it'll be a small screen, and you wouldn't have any of the binds that you could fit on a keyboard.
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Let me remind you that Digital Paint Paintball 2 can make bots that you can play against, so that could be for the first release. Second, there is a Wi-Fi source code somewhere on the internet that you can incorporate into Digtial Paint Paintball 2 for a third release. Third, although the screens are small like you said, there are two of them.
In 2009 the Nintendo DSi will come to North America (if you don't have the Japanese version). But the problem is that there is no GBA game slot, so hackers have to use the SD Card slot on the side. So it may just be released for the first and Lite DS.
In Quake II DS, the top screen is just like the regular Quake II screen while the bottom screen has three different functions: First, it has the console screen. Second, it has a full keyboard like in Picto Chat. Finally, it has eight touch buttons that can be binded. It's the same with Quake DS, DOOM DS, and Duke Nuke'Em DS (I'm not really sure about the last two).
Basically, the first release should incorporate everything that Digital Paint Paintball 2 has, without the multiplayer. The second release should have multiplayer that is from DS to DS, not Wi-Fi. The third release should really fine tune everything else and then incorporate Wi-Fi.
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The main issue would be porting everything over. I'm more than sure it can be done, however currently only Jitspoe holds the full source code and I know that he wouldn't want to port this to the DS. If something like this were to be seriously considered, it would be after some decent bot AI is implemented.
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No. No no no no no no no. This would be a completely useless venture for jits or anyone who's time could be better spent contributing to DP to undertake. Even if there could be some kind of decent online system, the control scheme would be so mindbendingly terrible that the game would be nearly unplayable. Really, all this would achieve is a little proof-of-concept.
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Zorchenhimer, I think one of the problems is that the only video option is OpenGL, one of the things I don't think the DS can handle. And don't just jump to conclusions when you haven't even asked jitspoe for the full source code. And yes there definitely needs to be better AI but that could be implemented in the second or third release.
Eiii, I mentioned that I would help if someone else were to help also. jitspoe shouldn't really have to do any work as this was my idea, and not a feature request. And have you ever played Metroid Prime: Hunters? It is a good game and is basically like Quake/Quake II DS. In fact, the config files for Quake/Quake II DS is based off of that. Aiming is done using the stylus on the touch screen and jumping can be done by tapping twice. L would fire and the + Pad will move you. You can also make it just use buttons, so R would make you jump and X, Y, B, and A would aim. And you can also swicth between left handed and right handed.
I also think that Justinph5 was right about not having enough bindings, but maybe if someone were to get the Guitar Hero Guitar Grip source code you could use those four buttons. But still, that's a theory. Quake/Quake II DS can only be run using a slot-2 device for it's extra ram, and Drunken Coders stated that there may never be a version of Quake/Quake II DS that use only a slot-1 device (or maybe the slots are the other way around, I can't remember).
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Eiii, I mentioned that I would help if someone else were to help also. jitspoe shouldn't really have to do any work as this was my idea, and not a feature request. And have you ever played Metroid Prime: Hunters? It is a good game and is basically like Quake/Quake II DS. In fact, the config files for Quake/Quake II DS is based off of that. Aiming is done using the stylus on the touch screen and jumping can be done by tapping twice. L would fire and the + Pad will move you. You can also make it just use buttons, so R would make you jump and X, Y, B, and A would aim. And you can also swicth between left handed and right handed.
Metroid was designed for the DS. If you were to design a new paintball-like game for the DS, great! Go ahead, do whatever you want. My point is, though, a direct port will not do well at all. The game, as it is now, is a twitch shooter that rewards accuracy and speed. You can't be accurate using the DS's control scheme, and it'd be very difficult to do any sort of half-decent jumping with a D-pad and stylus.
Again, you should feel completely free to start a PB2-like DS game, it'd probably be a fantastic learning experience for you. But don't even attempt a direct port, it'd just be a waste of time.
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And don't just jump to conclusions when you haven't even asked jitspoe for the full source code
maybe you should dig a bit deeper into Jitspoe's .plan and the developers forum as Jits has made it quite clear that the source will not be released.
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Mitchel, have you taken a look at the feature vote lately? Some of those have been on there for ages, and they are much simpler and smaller than porting the entire code to another platform. It will never happen. Also, what Knack says is true. Jits will not release the full source code because it would then negate the cheat detection system that he has in place.
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Eiii, between using the stylus or the buttons to aim, the stylus wins because of the little movements you can make using, as compared to the buttons you have to tap incredibly fast to aim just right. But It doesn't seem like you have seen Quake II DS gameplay videos at all.
Oh I just read it KnacK. I'm new so I don't read every single post. But still when you download the game you download the files, which could lead to the discovery of a different source code. All I'm saying is that someone should read all the files and make a new .nds file out of them.
It still doesn't seem like any of you have been to the site I included. Drunken Coders made Quake II DS off of the Quake II 3.20 source code. Also read above for what I wrote for KnacK. A .nds file for Digital Paint Paintball 2 DS would just need a little fine tuning for DS requirements, Wi-Fi, and configs for buttons.
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there is currently no wifi multiplayer...
All he did was put the single player into it, he couldn't even get multi-support. To get multiplayer, we'd have to add in a lot more stuff, and the single player mode on DS already looks to max out the DS.
mods and total conversions do not work, and are unlikely ever to...
He also only got the game working, and mods / conversions didn't work using his same process. I don't know programming either, but from the way he put it, we'd have to figure out our own way to port it, not just by using his example. As Eii said, this would only be good as a proof of concept, and it would be better to work on the actual game than to work on a port for it.
If making a DS game is your goal, then we won't bash you wanting to make a paintball type game for the DS, and I'm sure people here would help you out if you tried starting one and needed advice. As for the people who already work on DP2, their efforts are put in the feature votes to try to make the game itself better and better.
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Mitchell, I'm struggling to ascertain how computer literate you are, so I apologise in advance if I inadvertantly patronise you.
The work drunken coders have done is perhaps somewhat more complex than you realise. Digital Paintball 2 is designed to run on x86 hardware; it is created to run on processors which implement the x86 instruction set architecture. This is because Quake 2 was designed for these machines. When you write a program in a high-level programming language, it is computed by a compiler to generate Machine Code - code written in instructions that are part of the processors repertoire that is executed directly by the hardware. Obviously, this means that compiled code is intended for specific hardware.
The Nintendo DS uses an ARM7 RISC processor - RISC being an abbreviation for Reduced Instruction Set Computer. This is a different architecture to x86 and implements different instructions. Therefore, you can't simply execute native x86 code on the RISC processor.
Now, C/C++ code can be compiled for ARM7 processors; however, there are a number of things to take into consideration - such as that many program optimisations are made by finding elegant optimisation solutions in the assembly code itself. C/C++ allow low-level control of the assembly code where - if you are familiar with the instruction set you're targetting your code for - you can use intelligent substitutions for more efficient or faster instructions. Obviously, all these optimisations will have been carried out for the x86 instruction set, not the ARM7.
It's just not as simple as recompiling the source and packaging it up in a homebrew NDS. Some of the built-in functions and operations of C aren't even directly translatable to ARM7 (specifically with respect to dealing with floating point arithmetic, I think). The Drunken Coders guys will have put in a LOT of effort to get this to work, even without the absolute nightmare of the restrictions that the DS imposes. The point of all this being that it would be a huge amount of work to get DP2 running on the DS.
Also, consider that DP operates heavily on user-generated content - most maps you play on a daily basis were not shipped as part of the redistributable released by jitspoe. This means that maps are not federated in terms of size, processing requirement, texture use, custom texture size, any other required materials (sounds, models, skybox images, etc...) which means that most of the content associated with DP would simply be too much for the small resources at hand. I can think of very few maps that are popular in the DP community that are as efficient and conscientious as the original Q2 maps in terms of design and performance.
All this, and not to mention everything Eiii, Justinph5 and Zorch said about the desire to actually put the work in. Jitspoe will not release the source code for DP2 to protect the cheat-detection and other capabilities of the mod, and without it you could never hope to realise a DS conversion.
You seem like an enthusiastic contributer at least, why not get into mapping or coding and treat the community to some (slightly more feasible!) innovations of a different kind.
On another note - I was also impressed with Metroid on the DS, I really liked the controls and found them to be pretty intuitive. I have to agree with Eiii on them not being quite right for the prevalent gameplay style of DP, though. I don't think the Slot-2 expansion homebrewers market is large enough to really warrant the amount of work required by this mod, and the creators pretty explicitly say you NEED the GBA cartridge with 16MB of RAM. This also rules out your idea of the guitar hero controller to expand the control set too!
Hope this helps, anyway.
- Dag
P.S. jesus, what a lecture!
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Anywho, was at a port few weeks ago, suddenly i heard q3 sounds. A dude was playing q3 with his cellphone. Could distinguish gun sounds, picking items and such.
Didn't know where to post it, so i post here. Anyone know what cellphone handles that and how u get q3 to run on that phone.
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http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/28/nokia-quake-iii-gains-on-phone-server-bluetooth-keyboard-and-mo/
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Justinph5, remember that it was the first release of Quake II DS. Quake DS can run almost up to the PC version when using a GB Accelerator. And look at the time frame between each release. Although it takes a while I'm not so sure anymore that Digital Paint Paintball 2 can make it to the DS/Lite. And anyways while Quake II DS really pushes DS/Lite hardware to the limit somewhere in the middle of 2009 the Nintendo DSi will be released. And it includes an SD Card slot, which could probably hold data for homebrew games while the slot-1 can act as a extra RAM unit, and faster and more powerful hardware, so It may look better on a DSi rather than a totally modified DS/Lite.
Dag, what a lecture! Although the usage of a slot-2 device would erase the Guitar Hero Guitar Grip, developers can still gather it's source code and create a new slot-2 device that has a card slot and has four buttons, like the Guitar Hero Guitar Grip.
I guess that according to you guys it could make it, but it would be horribly ugly and not much fun to play. While the DS/Lite is ruled out, it doesn't count for other systems. I'm not as quiet sure if it could make it to the DSi or the PSP, besides the fact that it might run a little smoother than DS/Lite versions. But it could probably make it to the Wii, PS3, or Xbox 360. I don't think the PS2 would be good enough for it, same goes for Gamecube. Xbox may run it but it wouldn't be as good as running it on new systems. Quake and WiiDOOM made it to the Wii, so it might run but it will take a lot of time out of someone's hands.
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I love how you accept that it'll run on the nintendo DS, but don't think the PS2 can handle it.
The point I was making that cross-platform development (especially cross architecture) is not easy and very time consuming. This means that DP will never be run on a Wii, Xbox360, PS3, Nintendo Game and Watch, Commodore 64, Sega Genesis, Atari Jaguar, Amazon Kindle, Nokia Mobile Phone, ZX Spectrum, SNES, or Colecovision.
There are SO many things that I think you just aren't aware of in terms of software and hardware development that you are kind of missing the point. Ultimately, just ask the questions: a) WHY does this need to be done? b) WHO is going to do it? c) how much work does it involve? and d) Is it worth it?
- Dag
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I said that? I meant that from everyone's perspective that it could make it to the DS but wouldn't be worth it and that the PS2 can handle it but it would be kind of bad. And I think you're right. I spent some time reading online about the different systems (not old consoles; who would want to configure them anyways compared to modern consoles?) and I actually think It's interesting. Actually I found more than 40% of my knowledge about consoles to be off. Now It might be a long time before I post anything like this.
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Wasn't Quake II released for the PS2?
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It was released for the PC, PSX, and N64. Ports I know of were to the NDS and Xbox 360. The Xbox 360 version came as a bonus disc with Quake 4, and the game was basically a direct port. You may think of Quake II as a PS2 game, but PSX games can run on a PS2. Why'd you think of it?
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I remember playing Quake II on an N64 emulator.
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Oh. I used Project 64 but it is really slow and pointless to play. Someone should rip the maps and make a map pack out of them.
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Hyrule Field map ftw?
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FTW? I hate it when people use terms like that besides "u" and "ur". And it really isn't the point of this topic.
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FTW? I hate it when people use terms like that besides "u" and "ur". And it really isn't the point of this topic.
Someone should rip the maps and make a map pack out of them.
I'm pretty sure Hyrule field is a map from Legend of Zelda and since you mentioned ripping the maps, my comment would pertain to what you were saying.
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I meant the maps from the N64 version of Quake II. (I think) all the maps are different, I know one is.
But anyways that would be a good idea but you can't just rip then imediatly played it. You can either convert it to a .bsp file or just make a new .bsp file and recreate the map.
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This game is actually playable on an xbox. Paintmagnet had it on his modded xbox a while ago and played it. I'm not sure exactly what emulator he used or how he got it to work but it was done. Unfortunately the controls were pretty much useless for this game. Strafe jumping and the aim control required just won't work on anything but a keyboard and mouse.
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He probably loaded *nix on it and used a *nix client
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Wasn't Quake II released for the PS2?
Maybe you're thinking of Quake III? There was a competent Quake III port for the PS2
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Nope, it was Quake II for the PSX (and N64).
http://www.idsoftware.com/games/quake/quake2-psx/
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Do you guys even read what the topic is first before posting anything? Quake has nothing to do with this topic (besides Quake/II DS).
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Mitch, when I first saw this thread I was like what a joke. You are taking this seriously though, so here goes. As said by hitman about the X-Box, its going to be basically impossible to aim at someone quick enough using the arrow buttons or whatever they are. A mouse will always be the best option for it. Strafe jumping will be near impossible, which is another part of the game. I did think about it for a bit, and thought a Wii might be a thought, you could aim nicely, but the thing is, you still can't strafe jump. The difference about this game and other games is that, even though they have a controller, its not a 1-shot elim/kill. Most of them have health and you have time to aim at them, jump or run away, etc. Whereas on paintball, as soon as someone sees you they will aim at you and as soon as a paintball hits you, you are eliminated. You don't have that extra time that you have with health to aim. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense to you, but you can not have a 1-shot elim/kill game on a DS or whatever linked with a PC. You will completely get dominated, no matter what.
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You have a point with the whole no aiming and strafe jumping deal. The NDS could suit it better then other portable consoles because of the stylus, which could be easily used to aim. And the Wii would be better off than other consoles because of the pointing system, which would give a realistic kind of aim for paintball.
Although I don't know what strafe jumping is, I think I do it all the time, so I can't really talk about that. Anyways, sometimes I wonder why one hit means a kill. A paintball I used to know was where everyone would stay in the round (different color paintballs) and at the end hits would be counted up. I think a mod like that would suit all consoles.
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If you don't know what strafe jumping is then you probably don't do it because it takes some skill and know how to do. And changing the game type to count up hits later completely defeats the purpose of this game. So now instead of just converting all the code they would have to re-code and make a whole new game type.
Let's make this simple...IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN PERIOD!
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Can someone teach me how to strafe jump? And I guess that you guys really set it straight to me this time.
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http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=11272.msg114115#msg114115 (http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=11272.msg114115#msg114115)
read cusoman's post (reply #4)
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Oh! I just read it and I know how to do that. I use it on the Artic Jump Server. So no wonder it wouldn't work on a NDS or Wii.
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I know this topic is about 16 days old, but I have an update. I finally got Quake II onto my NDSL, and it is pretty good. It has a decent frame rate, and everything is pretty good, just needs a little touch-up. We agreed how strafe jumping couldn't work on any console, but that is not true. If the console's controller has a + Pad it is possible to do so.
I also got Quake onto my Wii using the Twilight Hack, and it runs at the best frame rate I have ever seen, and it also has awesome controls. Network play isn't supported yet, but it is soon to come (it says that you can use network play but it's used just for bot matches). And strafe jumping sort of works, I cannot really tell.
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Digital Paint Is Just Fine On The Computer; you don't need to try to put it on the DS. If you were to get it on the DS, the graphics would be low because the amount of ram it would need to run the game. You would need an extra memory card that would go into the GBA slot like with the DS browser does just to access the internet for Wi-Fi. I don't even know if all the files would fit on a DS slot-1 card with all the new maps, config files, textures and more. I think it would take too much time and money to get it to work properly. I sure you would have a lot of lags with it, probably more that you would with a computer. So in my opinion, you should not even try to put DP on the DS, DP it self is not even fully complete, theirs still alpha builds coming out.
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Umm, we understood that about a month ago...
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You know Udead, from spamming the forums to making unlit maps, he can do a mediocre job at everything.
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I was not spamming the forums, if I was to do that I would be Autococker by now and probable banned for a couple days. Cameron, I was just looking through the forums and found this and wanted to post what I thought, sorry if it’s a month old.