Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Mapping => Map Graveyard => Topic started by: KalTorak on September 15, 2005, 08:38:54 PM
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kalsmile
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4061/sshot0064os.th.jpg) (http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0064os.jpg)
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/7188/sshot0071vl.th.jpg) (http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0071vl.jpg)
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4051/sshot0081kt.th.jpg) (http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0081kt.jpg)
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/733/sshot0095mv.th.jpg) (http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0095mv.jpg)
kalcrazy
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7286/sshot0105qi.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0105qi.jpg)
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7480/sshot0113yd.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0113yd.jpg)
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4761/sshot0123fi.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0123fi.jpg)
the file hosting is down at the moment so if you wanna see the maps you'll have to get a hold of me via irc - kal :P
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both maps hosted here
http://www.h4xerz.com/downloads/kals_beta1.zip
hehe its all there maps textures have fun
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there we go ;D thanks smoke
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Is it finished kal?
Let me know.
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kalsmile
kalsmile isn't ready for beta testing yet. It hasn't been fully compiled. There's no vis. The map probably leaked. This must be fixed before it can be played online. Not only are the r_speeds insanely high and the framerate unplayable on lower-end systems (I get 16fps in some areas on my geforce when usually I'm getting 60-140fps), but it means that all the entity data will be sent to all clients at all times, causing lots of lag.
Aside from compilation issues, there's some other problems:
1) There's only one path. You need to have multiple paths to keep the gameplay flowing smoothly. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to capture the flag. Not to mention the gameplay is dull and stale. Add some alternate routes to make things interesting.
2) All autocockers sucks, especially in one-path maps. People just spray and spray, and there's no way around it. You have to run through the spray because there's no other route. Autos should be prized and rare -- placed in locations that people have to go out of their way to get. Weapon placement can play a big role in gameplay strategies. I hate it when people throw all that out the window and just spawn everybody with the best equipment.
3) There's a lot of screwy brushwork going on. It's even visible in some of the screenshots you posted. For example, this one: http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot0071vl.jpg -- the hill with the barrel in it: none of those edges line up right. There's slivers and cracks all over the place. How did you even end up with that? What editor are you using? That type of stuff looks bad, can lead to leaks, and causes annoying clipping problems. If you're using BSP, I can give you some tips on how to re-make that stuff cleanly.
4) The lighting is really screwy. I'm not sure how you managed this, but it seems like everything is uniformly lit with random splotches of light here and there, from no apparent light source (see screenshot). Also, the lights themselves don't give off light. I'd suggest using arghrad's sunlight feature in place of ambient light and... I don't know how to fix the rest of the lighting -- maybe it was just because the map wasn't properly vised?
4) Built-in "wallhacks" are bad. If you get on the roof of the hut (see second screenshot), you can see right through the wall. This looks funky and is unfair. Replace that sky brush with a solid wall somehow.
So, in short: add more paths, fix the lighting, fix the brushwork, and make some strategic use of equipment spawns.
Also: the custom textures. Did you make them? If not, who did, and what license are they under? You probably need to credit the author. Finally, are they even necessary? I'm all for using custom textures, but these don't seem to add anything as there's already a shingles texture, and when we go back and re-do all the textures in high-res, these will be left out. It also seems weird using shingles for the side of a hut.
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thanks for that "short" reply jit ;D
yeah i know, i didnt run vis on kalsmile cause i knew it would take a week -- it was just an idea, definately not playable. i don't think i'll be pursuing that map anyhow, just leave that one for dead.
in BSP, the edges on most of the brushes (for me at least) 99% of the time don't align correctly when i rotate them -- any tips on how to properly do so would be appreaciated
also, the sky wallhack thing.. there really is no way around that huh? when you look through the sky texture, anything behind what you're looking at is visible; i've thought of many ideas of how to try and fix that, but i'm seriously stumped -- i guess i'll just design the maps better. :P
sorry for the waste of space ;)
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kalcrazy
This map looks a lot more promising. The brushwork is much cleaner. It appears to be vised properly (but that could use some tweaking, see below), and it offers a couple paths to make the gameplay more interesting. There are still some problems, however:
1) The lighting is screwed up (see screenshot). The map almost looks like it's entirely fullbright/uniformly lit. Two of the lights emit light in the whole map, but for some reason, none of the others do. What compiler are you using, and with what options? I'm really curious as to how you ended up with this. Also, having the lights half-way in the wall looks funny, and there are a couple misaligned light textures (see second sshot).
2) Water, water, everywhere, but it looks funny, don't you think? Since water is about the only "special effect" quake2 has, mappers have a bad habit of using it everywhere *cough*dirtytaco*cough*. Don't. It doesn't look that great. :) On top of that, with the reflective water enabled, having more than one water surface makes the framerate go to crap. And vertical water surfaces just look silly. The water in the ditch in the middle is fine, but I'd take the rest of it out.
3) All autos sucks. Again. You have lots of little areas in this map that you could use for weapon and item placements. Take advantage of it. Put an auto up on the little ledge around the big post, for example.
4) Though there are two unique paths in this map, they both converge into one at the base. This may not be an issue as it doesn't look very easy to spray-camp the base, but still it'd be nice to have some alternative strategies in the base itself. Maybe extend the post ledge to the ladder-tower thingamabob, and move the flag forward (under the thingamabob) so you can come around and grab it from behind.
5) Use that grass/dirt transition texture for the ditch in the middle.
6) Some of the texture usage is a little... funky. You have wooden posts supporting marble tiles, for example. Also, you should have a bit of a theme for the map -- especially with the rock stuff. It looks weird having the grey rock up against the brown rock. You might also want to make the rock look more... rocky, rather than a flat wall.
7) Make the spawn face forward instead of to the side.
Well, I think that's enough for now. Oh, and thanks for posting these as beta for review instead of just calling them done and getting someone to put them on a server.
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in BSP, the edges on most of the brushes (for me at least) 99% of the time don't align correctly when i rotate them
I think I've mentioned this in another thread, but never, ever, ever, ever, ever use rotate with arbitrary values. 90 degree multiples only. Due to the nature of quake2 brushes, arbitrary rotation will almost guarantee brush misalignment. To get arbitrary angles, use clipping planes.
Clipping planes are the perfect tool for brush editing, because that's how brushes work: they're just a bunch of planes. It's kind of like slicing a block of cheese. Shift+right click to set a point on the plane. You can do either 2 or 3 points. These points define a plane. In the 3D view, it will show you what the brush will look like after the plane has been carved off. If you're carving off the wrong side, simply hit the "flip" button. Hit the carve button, and it will slice off everything to one side of the plane. You can also use "split", which simply splits the brush(es), but keeps both sides. This is useful if you want to change the texture on half of the brush or something. Also useful for making windows.
Once you get the hang of them, you'll probably start using clipping planes for everything. I know I do. :)
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jit, what would I do without you? :)
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oh and yeah, I dunno what's up with the light source not working on the second map there.. i'm using arghrad (I don't know if there's any other options) and sometimes it works flawlessly, sometimes it does what you see there. maybe my version of arghrad is old, but from what i understand there isn't an updated version of it (or is there?) i think it could've been the light texture that i used for the lights, but then again i don't see why that would cause a problem -- everything checked out fine under the settings. for arghrad i first ran it with -chop 1000 and got a totally dark map. on beta1 i ran it with -chop 1000 and -minlight .1 i think just to get something in there. thank you for all your constructive criticism; i'm still progressing as i go along here -- i have a lot of ideas and patience, i'm willing to work with that =p
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to all concerned,
bleh bleh bleh bleh = Loial has a better ping than a understanding of whats going on :) hugs@@!!!
get me good new maps
go kal go!!!!
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rofl loial -- i'll let you know once a beta 2 is done =p im primarly gonna work on my second map
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http://www.h4xerz.com/downloads/kalcrazy_beta2.zip
the only difference between beta1 and beta2 is that in beta2 i've included a backdoor from the base to the middle..
yet still, i'm stumped as to why i cannot get arghrad to light it properly... i've included the .map and .prt files so if anyone decides to take a crack at it to try and fix it ..by all means ;)
please, i know someone can tell me why it's not working -- and when you do you'll be rewarded with a box of cookies.
p.s. i lied about the cookies, isn't it more rewarding to know you helped others? ;D
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Spawning with weapons!!!! Anythign else on public is a rush to the best gun barrell etc etc etc. LAME. Im here to be killed as fast as possible not to hunt for better equipment. Bah this is old news anyhow. On to the more important stuff.
Jitspoe can you load this in beta and allow some play testing?
If so Kal lets hook up and test this bad boy out !!!! I will be home tonight. See if you can bug Jitspoe on chat or somthing to make this so.
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Um, I just did a qbsp/fastvis/rad right from the bsp export menu and it worked fine: http://dpball.com/files/maps/incomplete/kalcrazy_beta2_lit.zip -- It's a bit splotchy, but the final compile batch file should fix that up.
I'll comment more on the map in a bit.
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One thing I forgot to mention in my last post about the map is that there are some things that can be done to improve the VIS. The window you have by the upper path can be seen all the way from the back of the base, causing some fairly high r_speeds. If you move to other side of the base, though, the r_speeds cut in half, because you can't see through the window anymore. If you tweaked that area a bit so you couldn't see the window from far away, it would help the r_speeds and network lag a good bit.
As for the changes you made: well, none of them were things I suggested. I guess more paths are good, but that doesn't address the issue of the base itself. Also, I'm not sure why you replaced the light textures with the solid white texture, unless you were just testing. It looked better with the light textures -- now it looks like there's a texture missing or something. Also, now that you have that new path, you really need to beef up the walls. It looks weird having a huge sheet of thin rock supporting the whole level. And put some clip textures around the colored wood in the center of the map, so people don't accidentally get caught on it when jumping across -- that can be annoying.
Oh, another little thing -- the marble-brick towers have about a 1-foot gap between them and the wall. It looks like you fixed some things on each side, but not everything (ie: ladder is floating on one side). You should probably rotate some of those colored wood textures, too. It looks weird having vertical planks on a horizontal board. In fact, it would be best to line it up so it looks like a single plank for each ladder rung.
Gonna bug you about the water again, because I think it looks goofy. Also, you should never have more than one water surface visible at a time because of the reflective water. Give build 15 a try with r_reflectivewater 1.
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http://www.h4xerz.com/kaltorak/kalsand_beta1.bsp
http://www.h4xerz.com/kaltorak/kalidea_beta2.bsp
http://www.h4xerz.com/kaltorak/kalbeach_beta1.bsp
i wont spoil you with screenshots, just try them out and post some feeback ;D *hugs*
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almost forgot...
http://www.h4xerz.com/kaltorak/kalcastle_beta1.bsp
k - now go play :P
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http://www.h4xerz.com/kaltorak/kalsand_beta1_map.zip
i played against bots in kalsand_beta1 (i was red, bots blue) and sometimes a few bots would spawn on my side; but I would never spawn on blue side. I looked at the team number on the red/blue spawn points to see if any were wrong, but they appear to be all set. I don't know what's causing this to happen, so if anyone could take a look at it for me please it would be greatly appreciated =]
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Use clipping planes unless you want to wait 3 days for vis to complete. ;)
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Small MAPS!!!!!!!!!!! taco, jitspoe = large scale trolls
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I think the size is fine. It's the layout, items, and brushwork that need improvement. Of the 4 new maps, I think sand has the most potential, but...
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD QUIT SPAWNING EVERYONE WITH AUTOS
And yes, sand does have a bad spawn teamnumber. BSP has a handy "select by" tool that will let you select by key/value so you can quickly find spawns for different teams. As DT mentioned, you could also do some work on the terrain to make it look better. The flat 90 degree corners looks pretty bad with the sand texture. Also, arghrad has an option that lets you smooth out or phong shade the lighting on surfaces. If you set a value on a surface (but don't check the light flag), all the surfaces of that value will be blended together. I've actually got that set by default on the barrel textures (you may have noticed they don't look as blocky as they do on some older maps), and with the new BSP pack I'm working on, I'm setting it by default on some of the ground textures as well. The downside to this is that it can lead you to a MAX_PATCHES error a lot sooner. Oh, and a lot of barrel textures are misaligned, and there are some barrels part way in the wall and stuff. You should fix all that. I'd also get rid of the water. Not only does it look out of place in a desert-themed map, but it's annoying.
idea: needs better lighting (at first I didn't think it was lit at all, until I hit one small area with lighting). I'm not sure where you were going with the center area, but... it's weird, and you can get stuck. There's a lot of misaligned brushes. At the top of the hills, the hill is about 1 unit off leading to a very small vertical wall, which stops your forward momentum when running up it -- rather annoying. The 7-foot-tall sawhorses look funky, too. It might be an OK layout, though.
Beach: The lighting actually looks pretty good in this one, but the layout is blah. One path combined with all autos will lead to a very boring spray match. Also, when you get up on the towers, the r_speeds go through the roof.
Castle: meh... doesn't look much like a castle, and it's basically a box map. The lighting is way too bright.
Oh, and just for reference: 8 units is supposedly 1 foot (though that's a bit small, it's more like 9.3 units unless you want the player to be 7 feet tall). Many of the things in your map are extremely large. Most pb2 maps (and quake series maps in general) suffer from this, but it seems especially extreme in your maps. Some of the ladder rungs, for example, are almost 4 feet tall.
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I actually Beach. It's a good start, but needs a structure in the middle with a SMALLER HILL, and more cover/etc in the bases. Something like stalemate might work well on the map...
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I think the size is fine. It's the layout, items, and brushwork that need improvement. Of the 4 new maps, I think sand has the most potential, but...
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD QUIT SPAWNING EVERYONE WITH AUTOS
At least auto spawn equipment with steell barrels, brass SHOULD BE BANNED :) !!
Jits aside from whatever you mentioned ( i have know idea :) Any map used on a official public server should keep in mind most maps are not used in a match. Think about it.
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That's because most maps suck for matching. Very few offer good teamwork/stratigies because they're all 1-path maps full of autocockers, which is exactly what I'm trying to get mappers to get away from. We need more quality maps.
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Sez you and a few that hardly play public day or night, but somehow have time to post, logical well thought out posts.
Im not saying your opinion is better or worse than mine, in this case i would defer to you.
I am saying what most common public players want. Equally spawned weapons are fair, anything else is a race to the best weapon and or barrell. That is worse that all autos, period, reagarding fps play
Now if you want to equate "sTRAdegy" with "FpS" then keep on doing what your doing.
That brings me to my first point.
That's because most maps suck for matching. Very few offer good teamwork/stratigies because they're all 1-path maps full of autocockers, which is exactly what I'm trying to get mappers to get away from. We need more quality maps.
That is why you need to sub divide maps into catagories. This is a logical to outlet.
Love,
Loial
ps thanks for your hard work that I am clueless about!!
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alright, i know i should spend more time on a map and make it nice and big and elaborate.. truth is, these betas are exactly what they are -- betas :P
and i've taken my notes.. no more spawning with cockers. no more obscene amounts of water in nonsensical places. basically, no more newb maps.
I made those maps quickly (some in under an hour as you can tell) so i could simply show you guys what i'm capable of, and find out what you like and don't like -- thank you everyone for your input.
on the other hand, i don't think there's anything wrong with smaller, 1-routed maps. it helps to speed up the process as opposed to larger maps that can cause everyone to sit out for the full 60 seconds (hey, every minute adds up) on the smaller maps when you get eliminated you usually don't respawn within the 60 seconds because the rounds already over. it just depends on how you look at it. i dont know about you but i don't really enjoy sitting out watching when i just wanna play :P but yeah, any more maps i make, i'll try my best to keep everyone happy. thanks again for your replies ;D
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The problem with 1-path maps is that capturing the flag is basically impossible unless somebody screws up. And when somebody screws up and causes the team to lose 5 points in a round, it's just frustrating. Usually the team with the newbie gets screwed because the newbie will be hiding somewhere while the other team runs past him.
That and the gameplay is stale. We have literally hundreds of 1-path maps, and they all play about the same. It gets old. What's the point of a new map if it doesn't offer anything new? Routez has paths out the yin-yang, and it was hella fun because it offered a refreshing change to the "Rush to the center and spray. New round. Rush to the center and spray." style gameplay.
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The problem with 1-path maps is that capturing the flag is basically impossible unless somebody screws up. And when somebody screws up and causes the team to lose 5 points in a round, it's just frustrating. Usually the team with the newbie gets screwed because the newbie will be hiding somewhere while the other team runs past him.
That and the gameplay is stale. We have literally hundreds of 1-path maps, and they all play about the same. It gets old. What's the point of a new map if it doesn't offer anything new? Routez has paths out the yin-yang, and it was hella fun because it offered a refreshing change to the "Rush to the center and spray. New round. Rush to the center and spray." style gameplay.
Bah, Gets old, one path maps do. Do away with them you should not. Again you small few who hardly play anymore public, figure out a way make good small maps and stop whinging about the ones you do have.
Although your opinions are well founded and well thought if your refering to serious match play.
Dont miss or ignore the point of making maps for public play. Small rounds, quick action. get as many kills as fast as possible. Not run around with hardly any confrontation, compaired to one path maps.
Again what is this MYST or DigitalPaintball. For now concentrate and a meduim to small map and perfect it. We need new maps that will get played.
Bah this is old and stale arguement ...large maps are fun but they need the player support to make them fun. THIS IS NOT HAPPENING!!!!!!
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That might have been the usefulest thing you've said ever!
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thanks, I think thats the nicest thing you ever said..
awwww lets hug!!
*edit save the hugs gimmie drugs
and someone make some good small to mid maps.