Digital Paint Discussion Board

Digital Paint Community => Other Stuff => Topic started by: jitspoe on August 24, 2005, 01:06:42 PM

Title: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 24, 2005, 01:06:42 PM

After some debates on IRC the other night, I'm curious what people's beliefs are on the subject.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Cobo on August 24, 2005, 02:40:42 PM

yes and ill always will

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Inside on August 24, 2005, 02:52:25 PM

yap i do.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Excalibur on August 24, 2005, 03:44:00 PM

im a die hard Christian to the end.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 24, 2005, 06:08:31 PM

Which means...?

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: loial21 on August 24, 2005, 10:08:33 PM

The Chicken or the Egg   


*edit

I belive in love, logic and chaos.
 

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 24, 2005, 10:11:37 PM

Chicken, because the egg that the most recent genetic generation laid had to be a genitic mutation of the old chicken to create the modern chicken.

And your answer didn't really answer mine that well.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: loial21 on August 24, 2005, 10:22:39 PM

Quote from: eiii on August 24, 2005, 10:11:37 PM

Chicken, because the egg that the most recent genetic generation laid had to be a genitic mutation of the old chicken to create the modern chicken.

And your answer didn't really answer mine that well.

So where did the egg come from and so on and so on?

I belive in Creation and how far back does that go?

This is an astral physics question ....meh, nothing more.

Quote

And your answer didn't really answer mine that well.

Sorry :)!!

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 24, 2005, 11:59:51 PM

The egg came from the post-modern chichen. That egg had a genetic mutation that made it into the modern chicken.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: b00nlander on August 25, 2005, 06:07:20 AM

well, the really interesting question is:

what was before the "big bang", if there was such thing.
on the one hand, without matter there can not be time... so there was no "before"...  but was the universe created out of nothing? impossible, you would think...

many many unsolved questions... and yet, i believe in evolution (to get back on topic). and the egg:  well, first there was an egg, then the chicken, because as mentioned before, some "non-chicken creature" must have laid an egg.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 25, 2005, 09:29:41 AM

You've got the theroy wrong. Before the Big Bang, There was a different univerese. It happened because the universe imploded on itself or somthing. But I'm not an expert on the subject.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: b00nlander on August 25, 2005, 11:52:37 AM

okay, and what was before that other universe which imploded?  i think you know where im going with this...

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 25, 2005, 02:16:35 PM

If there was another universe before the big bang, why would you need the big bang to create the universe?  Also, a bang is an explosion, not an implosion.  An implosion would be like... the big fwoomp!

Anyway, I think the big bang is a whole different debate. To those who believe in evolution: why?  Have you seen any kind of evidence yourself, or do you just believe it because somebody told you?

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Cobo on August 25, 2005, 02:44:20 PM

the big bang its not an implossion it is an explosion but the thing that exploded was matter that was compressing itslelf until it fianlly exploded.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 25, 2005, 03:04:45 PM

The big bang kinda 'reset' the universe. Everything blew up, and lots of random stuff went flying around until it formed simple galaxies. Then planets, life, stuff.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 25, 2005, 04:20:08 PM

Because as we've experienced over and over, explosions have a habit of creating organization and life.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 25, 2005, 04:41:19 PM

No, but if stuff just floats aroud for billions and billions of years, life tends to create itself.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 25, 2005, 05:51:34 PM

Scientists have been attempting to create life for years in highly controlled envorinments without much luck, even when everything is "just right."  Life does not tend to create itself.  It tends not to.  Statistically, it'd be more probable to dump a bunch of car parts out of an airplane and end up with a Rolls-Royce, but when I see one driving down the street, I don't question whether or not it fell out of an airplane or not.

Title: _
Post by: IronFist on August 25, 2005, 07:22:47 PM

Post removed

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 25, 2005, 09:28:37 PM

Quote from: jitspoe on August 25, 2005, 05:51:34 PM

Scientists have been attempting to create life for years in highly controlled envorinments without much luck, even when everything is "just right." Life does not tend to create itself. It tends not to. Statistically, it'd be more probable to dump a bunch of car parts out of an airplane and end up with a Rolls-Royce, but when I see one driving down the street, I don't question whether or not it fell out of an airplane or not.

If that was a analogy for creationism, it was a really bad one.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 25, 2005, 09:55:57 PM

No, it was just an example of how far fetched evolution is.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 25, 2005, 10:14:12 PM

Uhhh... It didn't happen overnight. It took billion and billion of years, and every species went through billions and billions of stages. If you set a million monkeys at typewriters...

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: loial21 on August 26, 2005, 12:21:24 AM

Is there matter that takes mass and volume?
 
From what is the origin of this matter? 


 

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 26, 2005, 02:24:44 AM

As far as we know, the universe has existed forever. Existance can't just poof into existance, so there has to have been something the whole time, which is mind-boggling.

Think of it this way: Existance has always existed. You can't have nothing in this existance. So, there must have been some matter that started...

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 02:56:09 AM

The concept of nothing is more mind boggling than the concept of there always being something, I think.

"billions."  Heh, they always say that.  "Yeah, it's insanely improbable, but with billions of years, anything can happen, right?"

Ok, so do a little research.  How many structures would be necessary to form the DNA and whatnot for the very simplest living creature?  Then calculate the probability that you could get that configuration.  I think it's somewhere on the order of 10^40000 to 1.  That means if you were very generous and considered the earth could generate one configuration every millisecond, it would take approximately...

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Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 02:56:29 AM

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Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 02:59:31 AM

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billion years to come up with that configuration.  And even if you did, it wouldn't likely be alive.  Scientists have yet to be able to synthetically create life even after you skip past that huge number.

And that's just step 1 of evolution.  I see equally glaring problems in every other stage as well.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 26, 2005, 12:37:21 PM

If you'll notice, not every planet has life popping up everywhere. The earth was extremely lucky, and humans were extremely luckier.

And I'm assuming that a life could evolve that doesn't use water, and it probably could.


And you may notice that most animals have VERY CLOSE TO THE SAME DNA CONFIGURATION. One kind of animal/cell got this configuration, and then things probably just took off, and that animal took over. Then, it changed.

Also, here's an example. There is a very strange mutation in humans that lets them have the sexual organs of both sexes. This has only been recorded to happen twice, and I wouldn't be suprised if those was the only two times that it happened. Both times, the person has undergone an operation or something (Well, I know at least one did. The other might have been killed, depending on when it was born.)
Now, if the mutation hadn't been gotten rid of, in the early days of human evolution, they would have quickly taken over due to pure reproductive speed. However, this small change would make the population EXTREMELY inbred, making them very vunerable to genitic diseases or viruses, and most likely wiping them out.
Just showing how a tiny change can make or break a species.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 12:59:24 PM

Extremely lucky... it takes more than luck to overcome a statistical impossibility.  And like I said, that's just your chances of getting the right configuration of molecules.  Even if you have that, your chances of making that configuration come alive are... well, it hasn't been done yet.

As for your hermaphrodite example: this isn't evolution.  The genes for both sexes are already present.  It's just that they don't normally activate simultaneously.  You need to find an example where an animal generated a completely new organ that has never existed anywhere before.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 26, 2005, 04:49:13 PM

Actually, the hermaphrodite thing is evolution. You know about the XX/XY thing? The hermaphrodite is YY, I believe.

And organs don't just poof in to existance. Eyes started as photosensitive cells, and slowly evolved.

Here's another way of putting it: You have more of a chance of flipping heads 100 times in a row on a coin than 100 coins just appearing before your eyes.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 06:14:03 PM

But my point is X and Y are already present.  Unless Z comes along, you can only get different combinations of what's already there.

OK, say you have blue and red legos.  You can build something blue.  You can build something red.  You can even build a "hermaphrodite" by combining blue and red.  However, you can't build something yellow, because you don't have any yellow legos.  No matter how many different ways you configure your blue and red legos, you won't get yellow.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 26, 2005, 06:37:02 PM

Um... no. Using your example (which is also bad), you could say at some point there was a problem in the factory making the legos. And, it made a yellow lego. Using an even worse example, people like the new yellow legos. So, they made more.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Cobo on August 26, 2005, 07:27:20 PM

a Z chromosome is just not going to pop in because evolution is made by little changes and takes time.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jitspoe on August 26, 2005, 08:32:14 PM

Quote from: eiii on August 26, 2005, 06:37:02 PM

Um... no. Using your example (which is also bad), you could say at some point there was a problem in the factory making the legos.

However, this was not the case in your hermaphrodite example.  Give an example where new genetic information has been added.

Cobo: new genetic information has to pop up from somewhere, otherwise life would never start to begin with.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Cobo on August 26, 2005, 09:41:48 PM

yeah but it wouldnt be like a radical change.
an X chromosome is not going to look like a Z all of the sudden

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: KnacK on August 27, 2005, 11:42:10 PM

One of the 3 topics you never talk about with strangers....

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: loial21 on August 28, 2005, 09:27:36 PM

Quote from: KnacK on August 27, 2005, 11:42:10 PM

One of the 3 topics you never talk about with strangers....

the other 2?
sex and politics?

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Eiii on August 28, 2005, 10:03:27 PM

I'd guess politics and religion.

Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: loial21 on August 29, 2005, 05:49:42 PM

politics for me is semi-religion, since its plays a part in our ethics.